Experience.
It can be either evolving or stagnant, repeating the same over and over again. The same for teaching experience.
Steve Linke
Charles Nelson wrote:
As Patreshia noted, what is needed is "'darn good' teachers for their
students." But how does someone hiring determine who is "darn good"
and who isn't?
Of course, diplomas alone can't determine that. Neither can indepth
interviews. Imagine basketball recruiters recruiting on the basis of
interviews. Even sports experience at the high school level can't
determine who will be successful at the college level, and college
level experience can't always predict NBA success. And even experience
at the same level but in a different context doesn't always translate
into success. I taught EFL for 4 years at Marmara University's
preparatory department. I believe I did fairly well in my first two
years and my fourth year. But classroom dynamics in my third year led
to unsatisfactory results in some regards.
Diplomas aren't the end all, be all criterion of a good teacher, but
neither is an interview or even experience.
Charles Nelson
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Debbie East
Great point, Richard. This should spur us all to be more cognizant - both
good and bad aspects - of the almighty "piece of paper". In and of itself
that paper doesn't make a great teacher. It does assume that those who have
them have more knowledge about the subject than others who don't. That is
not always the case.
Deb
________________________________
From: RICHARD OLIVA
To: ESL in Higher Education IS E-List
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 7:48:23 AM
Subject: RE: [heis-l] ELS takeover
What you are describing is a common problem in education and in business.
Generally speaking, employers, whether in business or education, do not take
the time to "know" the individual they are hiring. It is far easier for
most hiring managers to rely on "a piece of paper" rather than conduct an
indepth interview. It is also safer because of legal issues.
Richard
________________________________
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:13:33 +0200
Subject: Re: [heis-l] ELS takeover
From: pvtkach@gmail.com
To: heis-l@lists.tesol.org
I would like to wade in and speak to the issue of those pesky little pieces
of paper that those who have hold dear and those who haven't are too often
pooh-poohed at in our profession. A Masters or Ph.D does not a good ESL
teacher make necessarily. I worked with several exceptional ESL teachers in
Los Angeles (higher ed. level) who did not hold a Masters in TESOL, one of
whom has written several textbooks that I'll bet some of us "more educated"
use in our college classrooms, another who was a primo grammarian who's
equal I have yet to meet, and several others who were just darn good at what
they did - including mentoring new teachers. I have found this to be true in
many other professions as well, where highly intelligent and competent
people who accomplish amazing results in their field, are held in less
esteem than people who hold advanced degrees and little proven talent.
With every recession in the U.S., the number of people who go back to school
to pick up a new piece of paper when they get laid off increases, and just
as a Bachelor's degree doesn't seem to be worth what it once was, how many
of us are now finding a Master's degree not cutting it? Employers can ask
for the moon and get it in this economy - but what they need and should be
looking for are "darn good" teachers for their students.
~ Patreshia Tkach
English Language Fellow
Pamukkale University
Denizli, Turkey
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Tara Smith
I have followed this thread with interest. I do appreciate reading what
everyone has had to say on all the various aspects of this issue.
However, I disagree with the notion put forth here and in other responses
that this list should simply be a place for finding support, and I think
there is an important distinction between being critical and insulting
something/someone.
I think Karen's advice is helpful, to phrase our emails as if we were
sitting across the table from each other. This advice also serves to remind
us that we have an extremely diverse group at this "table," which makes it a
more powerful medium for discussion. I don't think we should try to avoid
controversy, but rather, engage in these discussions earnestly.
I would find this list much less useful if we somehow decided it is not a
forum for discussing difficult issues.
Thanks,
t
Tara Smith
Associate Professor of ESL
BMH 120D
(907)786-6873
-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-308624-3287348@lists.tesol.org on behalf of
teachingsamantha-0@yahoo.com
Sent: Sat 3/6/2010 6:10 PM
To: ESL in Higher Education IS E-List
Subject: Re: [heis-l] ELS takeover
Denise,
At the ELS center I worked at, all the teachers were required to have at
least a BA, esp in the relevant areas, preferably with some related teaching
experience as well. To my knowledge, most if not all of us have at least a
Master's (one had more than one Master's and in SLA, while at least another
had a PhD in Linguistics) and some teaching experience. At first, I did
think like you: "good" TESL teachers should at least have a related Master's
and some teaching experience, but that would unnecessarily exclude many of
us, including myself, who may be still studying for our graduate degree
and/or could do with some experience and money to pay our bills as well.
However, I have seen my ex-colleagues at work and can assure you that they
are really very good at what they do, and in many ways, the students at the
ELS center I taught at were really fortunate to have them. Honestly, in
many other parts of the world, all a TESL teacher needs to be is a
native English speaker, and some of these still make excellent - and
informed - TESL teachers. Therefore, all the paper qualifications and
experience one can prescribe are really quite arbitrary at best, although
not without their (substantive) benefits.
Finally, because the teaching faculty makes up at least 70% (if not more) of
the "warm bodies" at any ESL center or school, it is trite in my opinion to
believe that one's issue is with the organization itself than those who work
for it. One can have the best administrators but without equally competent
(and dedicated) teachers, there is no way the organization and its students
can shine. All organizations have their strengths and weaknesses; and in
every organization, most people work individually as well as in teams. I am
afraid I cannot sit idly by when someone, especially a fellow professional,
who has never worked in any ELS center in this instance or any of the places
I work or worked at, appears to me to be tarnishing the work of my (former)
colleagues - who may not have access to this list - using such sweeping
statements. It is important to bear in mind that TESOL and its mailing
lists are a place for us to support each other, not denigrate
which can only weaken our profession. I myself have lost teaching hours
which have benefited fellow professionals, who in turn had been made
redundant from their former positions because their workplaces were shut
down. I did get a bit emotional about it but I chose to move on. I
sincerely believe that if one is qualified, experienced and perhaps more
importantly, willing to invest in the profession, there will always be
windows of opportunities open to such person. One should perhaps remember
that the TESL pie is the largest of all second-language ones.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with you my perspectives,
which I hope have helped shed some light regarding some of your valid
concerns.
Regards,
Samantha
________________________________
From: Denise Lowery
To: ESL in Higher Education IS E-List
Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2010 10:41:17
Subject: RE: [heis-l] ELS takeover
Samantha:
My problem is not with those who work for these organizations, but with the
organizations themselves. I do, however, still feel that anyone who is
teaching at a college should possess a Masters and at least 18 graduate
hours in the subject matter he/she is teaching. From what I've seen, many
of these companies do not require that.
________________________________
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 00:47:48 -0800
From: teachingsamantha-0@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [heis-l] ELS takeover
To: heis-l@lists.tesol.org
Denise,
As someone who worked at an ELS center (staffed by fellow professionals)
until last year, although I would agree that the pay was nothing glamorous,
as is quite common in the TESL field, I rather take exception to the rest of
the last sentence.
Samantha
________________________________
From: Denise Lowery
To: ESL in Higher Education IS E-List
Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2010 2:54:50
Subject: RE: [heis-l] ELS takeover
Wow. This discussion is so pertinent for me right now. I've been
following it since yesterday, and then, this morning got an e mail from the
Dean of Academic Affairs at the college where I work asking me about ELS
(they had contacted him) and if I thought they could "help" us with our
program. The fact that someone from ESL contacted the Dean of Academic
Affairs at my college, (where there is an existing ESL program) is in direct
contrast to the claims (made by Mr. Morrow below) that ELS does not
approach an institution which has a program already in place.
I also noticed that Mr. Morrow failed to address the questions dealing with
the "quality" of educators that his company hires. I sincerely doubt that
they are as concerned with qualifications as they are with the "bottom
line".
As a proponent of the professionalization of the ESL field, I fear this move
toward the corporatization of College English Language Programs. We have
fought long and hard for respect from our fellow educators. By "diluting"
our field with evermore ill equipped, underpaid and unqualified "warm
bodies", ELS and companies like them line their own pockets at the expense
of the integrity of those in our field who truly love this profession and
consider it a calling rather than a business.
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